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Thread: [READ] Rule Changes - Hydra Haubert Rotation System

  1. #1

    [READ] Rule Changes - Hydra Haubert Rotation System

    For the last couple of months, the leadership has been discussing our current Hydra lotting system. In determining its strengths and weaknesses, we've examined both the frequency with which a person is able to lot, as well as the lotting behavior of those involved.

    Unfortunately, we've come to the realization that although the system offers exclusivity, it does not promote the kind of lotting we originally intended. In addition to some people being excluded from not being able to win the initial /randoms, we also are forced to recognize that the desire of those lotting is not the Haubert set, but the Haubert itself. With this in mind, we are revising the system to address both of these issues.

    Essentially, we are going to utilize a rotation system similar to what we currently employ with Shadow Rings and Shadow Mantles. The focus of this rotation system is going to be on the ability to lot the Hydra Haubert only.

    The initial list will be created from those that have leveled (completely to 75) and made available to the linkshell their PLD, WAR, or DRK. After three members are selected from the top of the list to be able to lot the Haubert, they will be moved down the bottom of the list (hence, the rotation portion). The members' lotting positions will then be further adjusted by a series of bonuses and penalties to determine the lotting order for the next run.

    The adjustments to the rotated list will be as follows (keep in mind that the top of the list is the lowest-numbered position):

    Bonuses
    -1 position for every 100 runs attended
    -1 position if recent attendance is 90% or higher
    -1 position if PLD as an alternate job

    Penalties
    +1 position if chosen for 1 of the last 3 runs
    +3 positions if chosen for 2 of the last 3 runs
    +6 positions if chosen for 3 of the last 3 runs

    As you can see, the penalties will not be based on how many Hydra items you have previously won. Instead, it will be on how many recent opportunities you have had to be able to lot the Hydra Haubert. All Tavnazia runs are considered when determining what consists "the last 3 runs," whether the day is a split run with another zone or when we hold dual consecutive runs.

    The other Haubert set items (Salade, Moufles, Brayettes, Solleretes) will be offered to those who can equip them, according to the number of Haubert set items previously received. Those picked for Haubert lotting are not initially eligible for lotting the other Haubert set pieces.

    For example, if a Hydra Salade drops it will be offered to:
    - initially, those who have won 0 Haubert set items
    - after 30 seconds, those who have won 1 Haubert set item
    - after 30 seconds, those who have won 2 Haubert set items
    - after 30 seconds, those who have won 3 Haubert set items
    - after 30 seconds, those who have won 4 Haubert set items
    - after 30 seconds, those who have won 5 Haubert set items
    - after 30 seconds, it will become free lot (including Hydra Haubert lotters)

    For the purpose of calculating the number of Haubert set items someone has received, the Hydra Haubert itself will have the weight of 2 Haubert set items. The time limit will be used to ensure the timely lotting and distribution of the piece, and to discourage potential lotters from deliberately taking their time to decide when to lot.

    All other Hydra pieces will remain free lot to those who can equip them and do not at all affect the lotting rotation used for the Hydra Haubert. As usual, all members are still strongly encouraged to consider the utility that the Hydra armor has to themselves and to others before casting a free lot.

    All Hydra armor will keep recent (4/10) and minimum (50 runs) attendance requirements. A lotter MUST satisfy both of these requirements to be eligible for receipt of any Hydra armor piece.

    Though we believe that this system will promote fairness in lotting opportunities and better utility from less-reserved lotting of the non-Haubert pieces, we certainly realize from experience that the system can have potential loopholes or weaknesses that we may not have foreseen. We reserve the right to make changes and fine-tuning we deem necessary to address problems that come up, and will always communicate why we feel the adjustments are needed to make the system better overall.

    If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to post them in this thread. If you want to comment less publically, you can do so in the Administrative Notices forum.
    Last edited by Teorem; 11-18-2008 at 06:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Nice well thought out system.
    PLD/BRD/NIN/SMN/MNK/THF. 100 Cloth.

  3. #3
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    While this system seems really nice for people who are gunning primarily for Haubert, it seems like there will a significantly large increase in competition for the non-Haubert items. This is sort of disheartening as there are a large number of WARs and DRKs in the linkshell who will lot them (for some reason) without having PLD leveled. Before the system was changed, PLDs were given extra consideration for all Hydra pieces (even non-Haubert pieces) because we would have two randoms each time, one for PLDs and one for all jobs that can equip. Now, unless I'm misunderstanding, the non-Haubert Hydra pieces will go freelot equippable upon dropping to people meeting the appropriate criteria (50 runs, 4/10 recent, and 0 pieces received). This definitely increases the potential competition, rather than limiting it.

    For example: I personally would prefer to lot the hands over the body. To me, the body seems a bit too situational, especially since it's very likely that the Iron Ram Haubert will be included in the upcoming update, whereas the hands are the best PLD/WAR hands in the game. For me, this system would be increasingly frustrating because if the hands drop, I'll be forced to lot with a large number of DRKs and WARs who have very little use out of the item in normal circumstances (whereas before more priority was given to PLD).

    I do like that we've absolved the lotting penalty so that people can now get more than one Hydra piece, but otherwise, I'm a bit apprehensive about the system change.
    Last edited by Vandyr; 11-19-2008 at 06:47 PM.

    -Ω-Therin/Vandyr-Ω-
    {PLD 75} {DRK 75} {WAR 75} {DRG 75} {RDM 75}

  4. #4
    I wouldnt call hydra hands the best pld hands in the game, as due to the -hp, they raise the amount of CE lost when struck due to losing a higher percentage of HP. Similar to hydra haubert, they are simply the best JA/emnity macro peices. That being said, I can see where you are coming from, although I will be -very- suprised if Iron Ram Haubert has more than 5 emnity on it. With this system, all we can hope is that anyone that lots the hands/legs/feet over a plds will put it to good use Q.Q
    PLD/BRD/NIN/SMN/MNK/THF. 100 Cloth.

  5. #5
    All of the Hydra pieces have different subjective and situational value to PLDs, WARs, and DRKs. It's always been the case that we are unwilling to slam the door completely on WARs and DRKs lotting just because most of the pieces have the largest enmity boosts on equipment in the game, and that won't change here.

    Under the old system, your chance to win Hydra Moufles would be either 0% or 33%, with a lot more of the former than the latter. With this change, you won't see a 0% unless you're being considered for the Haubert or are otherwise ineligible, even though you have to compete with a larger field of people.

    The field itself isn't nearly as lopsided as you make it seem either:

    Number of active members with PLD: 28
    Number of active members with DRK and/or WAR and not PLD: 10

    In a free-for-all, if no one is considering the practical utility that a Hydra piece has to themselves versus others, it's still almost three times as likely to go to a PLD than a WAR or DRK.
    Last edited by Teorem; 11-19-2008 at 07:36 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandyr View Post
    While this system seems really nice for people who are gunning primarily for Haubert, it seems like there will a significantly large increase in competition for the non-Haubert items. This is sort of disheartening as there are a large number of WARs and DRKs in the linkshell who will lot them (for some reason) without having PLD leveled. Before the system was changed, PLDs were given extra consideration for all Hydra pieces (even non-Haubert pieces) because we would have two randoms each time, one for PLDs and one for all jobs that can equip. Now, unless I'm misunderstanding, the non-Haubert Hydra pieces will go freelot equippable upon dropping to people meeting the appropriate criteria (50 runs, 4/10 recent, and 0 pieces received). This definitely increases the potential competition, rather than limiting it.

    For example: I personally would prefer to lot the hands over the body. To me, the body seems a bit too situational, especially since it's very likely that the Iron Ram Haubert will be included in the upcoming update, whereas the hands are the best PLD/WAR hands in the game. For me, this system would be increasingly frustrating because if the hands drop, I'll be forced to lot with a large number of DRKs and WARs who have very little use out of the item in normal circumstances (whereas before more priority was given to PLD).

    I do like that we've absolved the lotting penalty so that people can now get more than one Hydra piece, but otherwise, I'm a bit apprehensive about the system change.
    I'm sorry, but I really wish you would stop playing Devil's Advocate whenever anyone says anything. All of your points above on what piece of gear are better are strictly subjective to you.

    DB has a 99.9% history of lotters passing on all Hydra enmity pieces because they would rather not be penalized when a Haubert drops. This new system will place the Haubert on a totally different system so that people will have oppurtunities to lot other Hydra enmity pieces and not be cockblocked out of lotting the piece they REALLY want. You're also assuming that any new gear is going to be available to everyone. For all you know it's on PW's drop pool.

    I'd be happy to discuss this with anyone who has a sincerly valid concern about the new system, not someone who is going to argue the opposite of whatever we do.
    Last edited by Izzy; 11-19-2008 at 09:00 PM.

    Izzy - FFXI - Phoenix
    WHM/BLM/SMN/NIN/PLD

  7. #7
    I don't mind devil's advocacy, since it's discussion that we should have and consider when going over a system's weaknesses.

    Ultimately though, everyone has to realize that it is very, very difficult to come up with a method that will make 100% of everyone 100% happy, and we have to say no to some things that others may want us to consider with more weight than others.

  8. #8
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    I understand that having another person's point of view is invaluable, however trying to find problems in every little thing (and boy do I mean EVERY SINGLE THING) gets extremely old, extremely fast. Also, making accusations that one piece of gear is without a shadow of a doubt better than another when the benefits are so marginal and situational to prove your point is laughable.

    Izzy - FFXI - Phoenix
    WHM/BLM/SMN/NIN/PLD

  9. #9
    When I first looked over the list, I thought it looked really solid, but I noticed something that kinda stood out as wierd.

    Bonuses
    -1 position for every 100 runs attended
    -1 position if recent attendance is 90% or higher
    -1 position if PLD as an alternate job

    Penalties
    +1 position if chosen for 1 of the last 3 runs
    +3 positions if chosen for 2 of the last 3 runs
    +6 positions if chosen for 3 of the last 3 runs


    With it written this way, it assumes that in the future it's possible to never be within a negative area.

    If a bonus is given for runs attended, it should have a cap, like instead of every 100, it should be every 100 up to 300, that way a negative is still plausible.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Izzy View Post
    This new system will place the Haubert on a totally different system so that people will have oppurtunities to lot other Hydra enmity pieces and not be cockblocked out of lotting the piece they REALLY want.
    This is exactly why I chose to respond in the first place, because the new system is better for those who want Haubert over the other pieces. For the people who want the other pieces, it's not so good - before, people would pass other pieces so that they could still lot the Haubert, leaving the other pieces to go to the people who would actually pick them over the Haubert in the first place. Now, the people who want the Haubert primarily can lot the other pieces and not be penalized toward their Haubert progress.

    And for the record, this is the first time I've ever commented on any policy adjustments, Izzy, so I feel like your somewhat childish comments about me being highly argumentative in this regard are entirely unfounded. It's almost as if you didn't read my post - I'm NOT playing devil's advocate, because this issue actually applies to me.

    In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who takes a position, sometimes one he or she disagrees with, for the sake of argument.
    Not what I'm doing at all.

    To Teo:

    I do feel that this system is very generous and also mostly fair to the Haubert lotters, and I suppose that I'm in the extreme minority when I say that I'd actually pass the body for another piece first, so all in all the system will benefit everyone else more in the long run. I'm fine with that, really. I just spoke up because before, someone like me would have a smaller amount of competition than under the new system. Most people would pass Hydra Moufles to keep their shot at Haubert, whereas now this isn't the case. It's nothing to fret over, really, as I'm probably the only PLD that this actually affects (everyone else wants Haubert, I think).
    Last edited by Vandyr; 11-19-2008 at 09:22 PM.

    -Ω-Therin/Vandyr-Ω-
    {PLD 75} {DRK 75} {WAR 75} {DRG 75} {RDM 75}

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