Leaflet steals another zone

[Kagebishin]

Once again the JP shell leaflet has stolen our xarc.... but made the mistake of giving one of my members a glass.... this will be fun tonight ^^.

[Kagebishin]

Well we went in, they tried to MPK, then we MPKed all 18 of them. they raised and we MPKed again, and again, and again, and again.... this goes on for about 2 hours while killing towers. Was by far the most fun dynamis ever.

[Kagebishin]

JP's been talking to GM for about an hour now in say, one of our members got put in jail for talking about bombing japan again with a warning, he was out in about 3 mins. This JP GM has been out here for the better part of an hour talking with them. My LS then began doing humping motions on the GM, other stuff went down. JP's are asking for money back and the GM said they couldn't sense we were given a pearl, etc, etc. Overall funny night.

[Akisu]

Since your bragging about this in the public forum, I feel the need to respond.

Leaflet being a japanese shell, I doubt they care to use this NA/EU calendar, and I'm sure a scheduling system for JP shells exist somewhere that none of us care to check out either. I'm not defending zone stealing, however- doing something like sneaking a member in, MPKing, coin stealing, and the verbal/emotive actions you described.... Being the leader(?) of your shell, is this the kind of behavior we can expect from your shell elsewhere?

Ever do Dynamis way back when NA groups first started poking at them? Groups would enter in front of each other all the time, if you can field the people, head in. Atleast that was how it was where I came from. This calendar just brings some of the chaos to order.

Seriously, wrecking Dynamis for another group, "stolen zone" or not, is rediculous as well as juvenile. I would have expected better from one of Phoenix's more well known shells.

[Kagebishin]

Wow i don't think you understand, and if you do then i really do feel sorry for you. This is not the only time this has happened. Last few times we tried many times to try and come to an agreement on the way this LS cockblocks. This LS did not try to be nice about anything, i be leave the main quote would be,;My LS 1st, yours second NA = waste ) Please don't post about thing unless you have the full story before you try and bash my LS. We have had conflict with other JP shells were we have solved them without ether party being upset. Shells like this are the reason Calendar's like this do not work. A few people follow the rules, others don't, and it will lead to a free-for-all if let go. Also we did not start the MPKing till they did, we were going to go in and get a fragment for an outside members of the shell, when we noticed them not doing the towers (They were low manning) we started doing them instead, after the 1st tower they aggroed the other NM tower with other mobs and trained them down to us. That is when i gave the OK to my members to do what they wanted sense they were going to MPK. Ether way we have tried being nice to this shell about things but i won't have my 40+ members waiting to enter a zone and watch a shell with nothing but disrespect take it from them after trying to be civil. And yes i have been doing dynamis sinse NA 1st started hitting 75, i ran with a few JP shells before then, with the /random you enter. I know about the pasted but that has nothing to do with the way we try to run it now.

[Akisu]

You're probably right, I don't understand, but mainly because you neglected spell/grammar check. I recommend spellcheck.net.

Seriously though, I understand perfectly. They've stolen your zone a few times, you are angry. Then, one of your members was accidently given a glass by some stroke of luck, a glass they paid 500k for none the less. You went in during their run, tried to do your own thing inside, pissed them off and had them try to cause you exp loss for it. I couldn't imagine how angry I would be if I had another LS hop into one of my dynamis runs like that.

I've had groups jump in on our scheduled Glorious runs before, or try to, we can usually either take an un-occupied zone, or work something out with the shell trying to scoot in on our scheduled zone. No reason to steal one of their glasses and head in anyway... that's just wrong, lol. Take this upcomming saturday for instance; you're running double zones, and I was planning to do Bastok that day before I noticed you had already taken in. How would you feel if some of my members snuck a glass, went into your zone, with the glass you paid for, and decided to farm Ore street, because you all seemed to be busy in some other section of the zone. I'm fairly certain you would mind, if nothing else, the distrust of having another group in the zone not to lot your coins/AF/other drops. Perhaps a bad example using Bastok, as it's pretty straitforward, but I'm sure you get the idea.

You missed my point earlier, apparently. It's completely unprofessional, especially as a leader, to jump into another shell's dynamis run, mpk, lot coins, or what ever else you might have been doing inside. At the very least, you should offer them 500k, or a new glass, for jumping in on their run like you did; regardless of who wanted the run more or had it scheduled here, they were in before you, so it was their run. What can you say, they don't use DynamisBum's generously offered calendar. Some people won't, it's how it is. The best you can do is deal with it in a civil matter. Bragging about what you did publicly like this just goes to further the image you present, and sir, that image is the opposite of professional, or civil. I think the best example you gave yourself:


JP's been talking to GM for about an hour now in say, one of our members got put in jail for talking about bombing japan again with a warning, he was out in about 3 mins. This JP GM has been out here for the better part of an hour talking with them. My LS then began doing humping motions on the GM, other stuff went down.

And you seriously wonder why this set of JP players have an issue with your shell and don't want to work problems out in a civil matter?

The point of this calendar system is to work things out between shells, that much is certain, however treating other shells that might not necessarily use this web site as you did, probably causes the rest of us issues later on as well. The same way most NA seem to stereotype JP players, I'm fairly sure that's true in reverse as well, so next time they think about talking a zone conflict out with one of the other shells here in a civil matter, they might have a flashback to what you guys did and give us a "screw you" response.

I'm curious on the opinions of other Dynamis shell leaders/members that frequent this forum/calendar, to get some feedback of what they think about this subject.

[Teorem]

The action of taking an hourglass from another linkshell and going into their zone isn't something I would myself condone, under any circumstances. The part with the JP GM sounds really over the top, and you really have to be careful with what you do and say because permanent bans certainly fall within the wide spectrum of authority GMs wield. You don't want to lose all of your years' work because of venting from one night's events or saying something inexecusably inappropriate.

That said, I can certainly empathize with Kagebishin's frustration. This "Leaflet" linkshell, on several occasions now, has made it clear that they are unwilling to compromise. They are not willing to /random for the zone, and as soon as they get the hourglass there, they enter regardless of the number of people Armada is bringing. On several occasions now Kagebishin has told us that they have tried to point them to our Calendar so that they can avoid the conflict, but the situation has clearly not improved. Is it only one side of the story? Sure, but nothing here suggests those collaborative overtures haven't been genuinely made.

Does any of this justify taking their hourglass? It doesn't, but the point you are trying to make to him is greatly diminished when you start off by insulting his spelling and grammar.

As leaders participating in a system that is supposed to be mutually beneficial, the first course of action you should take is to encourage the conflicting, non-participating linkshell to be active in the Calendar. Of course, due to the communication barrier (though not to say that a complete lack of effort can be justified by this), some linkshells will still choose not to participate. At that point you can be either proactive or reactive to the situations that come up.

The reactive approaches that Kagebishin has already mentioned trying--namely randoming, which is what most JP linkshells typically do--don't appear to be working here. Hijacking the zone is also another approach, but is far less desirable because of the repercussions. It may have felt very satisfying to take their hourglass, but the events that followed have basically secured the fact that this linkshell will never be willing to work with you in the future (though I can imagine you feel this was already the case given their actions and what they may have said) and may go as far as to deliberately spite you when possible. It would also be remiss to consider the consequences on the community as a whole, because when this linkshell's members talk to their friends, they're certainly likely to generalize while they're still angry.

Proactively, the only other real solution (the first being to schedule zones in advance, which all of us here do) to someone who will take the zone as soon as they can without observing a schedule is to take before they do. You may lose a few minutes while the rest of your linkshell arrives, but at least you will have the zone.

I don't like to make that kind of recommendation because I generally feel that conflicts can be worked out with most groups, but I also believe that one cannot completely ignore their self-interest when they are doing so as a part of a larger interest. For example, I would gladly change zones under most circumstances to help accommodate a need of a linkshell active here, but I would just as well turn away (and did recently) and not /random with a small 6-man group that shows up as we are preparing to enter.

I also want to make it VERY clear that for years I have been searching for a centralized, equivalent Dynamis calendar for JP linkshells on Phoenix. Unless they explicitly choose not to index on any search engine out there, there simply isn't one. This is only further reinforced by the fact that /randoming is the predominant method to resolve zone conflicts.

[Kagebishin]

1st: Attacking ones grammar or spelling just shows you don't have anything worth reading. you won't keep an open mind or see my side of the story, which that is your choice but it shows me no matter how much better your grammar or spelling is, you fail to think above me. 2nd: I do have friends that can speak JP and using them we have tried to fix this conflict. There is no JP calendar which they said themselves, double that when the JP shell goes during NA times they wouldn't need to post in JP times. 3rd I respect Teo's thoughts on this and under normal conditions yes there would be no reason to do what we did, but this wasn't normal. This was a LS that has shown disrespect not only in dynamis but in sky as well. Over and over they have shown nothing but racist remarks to me and my members about where we live and when it comes to people like i have no reason to show them the respect i show the shells that post here. 4th: To get respect you must give it. And yes, if this happened again i would do the same thing. I look out for the best interest of my shell, we knew what we could do based on rules. The GM humpping thing happened afterwards so any point you are trying to make there is lost because they have already shown us how they feel about my shell and NA's all together. (((((((((((((Also sorry about no spaces, i am typing ENTER, etc but when i post it all clusterfucks together)))))))))))))))))))))

[Akisu]

Sorry if the grammer/spelling plug was taken as an insult, it was made in sarcasm- as the following line included "Seriously though" to start my paragraph. That aside, my main point was, what you guys did was very unprofessional, and I felt I needed to respond as you were obviously bragging about it to the rest of us here.

I'm also in favor of the /random solution when it presents itself in a dispute situation, versus trying to jump into the zone, as it's more of a fair chance for both groups- assuming they don't want to follow the calendar here. (Agreeing with Teorem on the turning away of 6-man groups...)

I also don't understand what you're trying to say about the "GM humping" thing at the end of that Kagebishin, "they have already shown us how they feel about my shell and NA's all together." Are you talking about the GMs, or Leaflet? Because as far as I know, what you did, and even what I suppose they did as well inside, wasn't allowed in SE's rules for FFXI. They directly speak on MPKing, as well as theft, and one could argue that you guys knowingly stole a glass to get in, as it was obvious a mistake, and would have just as easily been tossed and moved to another zone. In light of the MPKing, and comments and such you said to them and the GM, I'm honestly surprised you guys weren't hit with a suspension stick. As Teorem said, is it worth it to throw away years invested in a character over a dynamis zone spat?

Also, does vBulletin offer any kind of JP language support like phpBB forums do? If so, would making a JP area of your calendar be too far off the wall of an idea? Perhaps if they had an understandable system to interface with, the JP players would be more apt to post here on the calendar, perhaps anyway.

Who is Leaflet's leader by the way? Perhaps I can see if I can't get some of my JP speaking friends to get his/her side of things.

[Kagebishin]

Well, per SE rules glasses are giving out of freewill. As leaders who have had this happen (LS member going crazy during a run) know there is nothing a GM will do about another member/LS in a zone. As for the bragging thing, please look into other posts i've made, this LS has not only fucked me over many times, but other shells as well. I posted this to show that karma always finds it way to the people who think they are above others. By SE rules there was no stealing, once a glass is giving you give away rights to a zone based on their rules. And like i said, we have (As have others) tried talking with this LS many times (6th time, can't count for other shells) and every time i've tried to /tell a member, even if there is only 2 in the zone they break glass right there in front of me. This post was more to show all the leaders that have been fucked over, that this shell has been giving a runover for all the shit they have brought on others.

[souleman]

They only steal Xarc, don't they? 18 man shell that low man's xarc only at around 6pm (like 6am jp time).

I know it is a pain in the ass for you, but ever try gathering in glacier, right near the zone line? They will look and not see anyone, so they won't rush to get in. Then once you ready, rush the markings.

This may work, especially if you can get started early. Though since your wed/sat, you will have to get in early on Wed to get in early sun.

You could even move your startime up to 5:30 or 5:45 (I know, you have a good size shell, so easier said then done), but it should be enough to make leaflet have to rethink what they are doing.

[Kagebishin]

leaflet won't rethink anything, just a bunch of stubborn Ass-hats that hate Americans. And yea moving it early would be near impossible sense 70% of my shell gets off around 5:30PM EST from work. Most of my members have to log out at zone just to enter on time. It is tho getting to the point where I will be paying 1mil again to enter. I have a mule with a glass rdy to break whenever to hold the zone till my LS is ready, etc. I know its retarded to have to do that, and for me shitting out 500k just to hold a zone, but my members want xarc af and i will do what i have to do to get them their hard earned items. Thank you for the thoughts tho ^^