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View Full Version : Special Exception - Shadow Mantle Priority



Spunkymage
03-02-2007, 06:00 PM
Preface:

Another member, who will remain nameless, mentioned something to me after the last Dynamis Lord fight Sunday. And that was, should we consider setting up a special priority for Teorem for the Shadow Mantle? I found this ironic, because I too had been thinking about this for some time now as I saw Teorem's attendance approaching 250 runs. He's now close to 260 runs, or put differently, 2.5 years of solid dedication to our ls. With this in mind, and unknown by Teorem, I spoke individually with the leaders and got their input on the idea and offered them a chance to express any opposition. The idea of an alternating priority was well received. We agreed, in a 7-0 decision, to move the proposal before the general linkshell for approval.

I think it goes without saying that he does more for this LS on a daily basis than all of us combined. While some of it may be obvious, there is much more he does behind the scenes that make our linkshell a well oiled machine. I'm well aware that he is 1 piece short having 5 sets of AF, but that should be immaterial to this discussion and vote. He has obtained all of his AF legitimately, by free lot, and I know for a fact he has passed for people working on their first sets of AF. In the wake of Fatman's passing, he took the reigns and kept us focused and pressing onward. And I have no doubts that if Fatman were still with us, or Radav were still here and in this situation, that we wouldn't have hesitated to have suggested something like this by now.

Proposal:

What we would like to do, is create an alternating priority for Teorem to lot the Shadow Mantle uncontested every other Dynamis Lord attempt. This priority would satisfy our basic requirements for lotting a shadow item:


* Must be an active member. Inactive members are not eligible for Shadow Item lotting.
* Both of the recent and minimum attendance requirements must be met. For Shadow items, the minimum attendance criteria is raised to fifty (50) runs.
* Must not have already previously won a Shadow Item. There is a limit of one (1) Shadow Item per member.
* Must have already indicated an item preference at least twenty-four (24) hours before the run. Members not making a choice until the day of the run (including right before the Shadow Lord) will not be included for consideration when determining lists.
* Must not have been eligible to lot a Shadow Item in the previous Dynamis Lord attempt. A member cannot be able to lot Shadow Items in two consecutive runs, regardless of whether the item lotted did or did not drop.

On the runs where Teorem lotted previously, the normal calculations would still remain in effect for the Shadow Mantle. Those are:

* 1 spot will be reserved for main job paladins attending the run who has been to the most dynamis runs
* 1 spot will be rotated among other main job paladins meeting the minimum lotting requirements listed above starting with most runs and working down.
* 1 spot will be rotated among the 5 members of the linkshell with the most runs attended.
* 1 spot will go to the member who has been to the highest percentage of the last 50 runs
* 1 spot will be chosen randomly.
* 1 spot will be selected by designated leadership. This spot may or may not be filled.

So the next time we attempt DL (3-7-2007), Teorem will be ineligible to lot since he lotted on the previous attempt. The lotting arrangements would look something like this:

DL #1 (3-7): PLD Main x2, Top Runs, Top Pct Runs, Randomer, Leader Designation (if applicable)
DL #2 (3-18): Teorem
DL #3: PLD Main x2, Top Runs, Top Pct Runs, Randomer, Leader Designation (if applicable)
DL #4: Teorem (if it did not drop on previous attempt)
DL #x: So on and so forth until Teorem's priority is satisfied.

Upon receiving the mantle, normal calculations for the mantle will resume for every DL attempt.

I felt this system would be reasonably fair with respect to the others lotting the mantle without significantly reducing their chances to lot. Having Teorem lot every DL attempt, and permanent priority were both suggested, but were decided against.


This poll will run thru Monday, March 12th. If approved, Teorem's priority will take effect, Sunday March 18th and remain in effect, every other run, until satisfied.

If you have comments or concerns, and do not wish to voice them publicly, then please send me (Spunkymage) a PM or /tell in game with your concerns. If you vote No, please be prepared to offer an explanation by post, PM to me, or /tell in game to me.

Lotting for the Shadow Ring will remain unaffected by this.

Additionally, I've asked Teorem to refrain from commenting on this matter.

Thank you.

Cyrus
03-02-2007, 07:45 PM
I moved this here to polls so it will show on the front page too.

Izzy
03-02-2007, 08:48 PM
move it back, non members can vote on polls on the front page

Spunkymage
03-02-2007, 09:35 PM
Move it back to General Chat or Dynamisbums Official Rules. In hindsight, I meant to put it in official rules not General Chat.

Halon50
03-02-2007, 09:43 PM
Like someone said on Vent, why not just assign the next drop to him. That'll end any discussion, voting, etc on it right away. Only reason I can see for someone to whine about it is if they think they deserve it more somehow, which just isn't the case.

I'd like to hear why you decided against permanent priority, or even a permanent rotation slot.

Zymurgy
03-02-2007, 10:20 PM
Like someone said on Vent, why not just assign the next drop to him. That'll end any discussion, voting, etc on it right away. Only reason I can see for someone to whine about it is if they think they deserve it more somehow, which just isn't the case.

I'd like to hear why you decided against permanent priority, or even a permanent rotation slot.


Fairness for people who think it's unfair to assign a leader a permenant priority on an item that others want.

Spunkymage
03-02-2007, 10:30 PM
1) I wanted a recommendation Teorem would accept. He has a strong penchant for the rules.
2) I wanted to keep it somewhat fair to the other SM lotters.
3) I wanted something that maintained our basic requirements for lotting the shadow items.
4) I wanted to avoid putting him in a situation where in his modesty, and position as a leader, he might be tempted to pass for someone.

Cyrus
03-02-2007, 11:16 PM
Sorry I had no idea that non members could vote on front page polls. I thought he posted it here because he didn't have access to post a poll.

Halon50
03-03-2007, 02:47 AM
I'm a Shadow Mantle lotter. And quite frankly, out of the remaining list of people who hasn't gotten one, it's between the PLDs (Teorem and Juma) and the other high-attendance people (Zymurgy). Since Zymurgy doesn't have PLD levelled, and Juma's attendance isn't even close, I don't see what the problem is with Teorem getting permanent priority until he gets the Mantle.

If you've had to bring this up in a separate post, then there's already a pretty significant situation here -- which is why I don't understand the need to bother with a new "alternating priority." Quite frankly, there's no one else that deserves it more.

If you still feel the need to continue with "fair lotting" then that's fine; I'll ensure I get my name on the list for every Xarcabard run and continue to pass lotting a Mantle until Teorem gets it.

Anyway that's why I'm one of the (currently) two NO votes on this proposal.

Halon50
03-03-2007, 02:52 AM
Just to be absolutely clear, I am indeed calling out anyone who thinks it would be unfair for Teorem to have permanent priority (other than goddamn Teorem). State your piece here, please.

Carmisse
03-03-2007, 11:36 AM
While I agree with Teo's Alternating SM priority, I would disagree with Permanent. Here's why! :

It's a given that Teo does a lot for LS on a daily basis. No one can argue otherwise.

I just think that it will be very unfair if other SM lotters don't even get a slight chance. I think Teo bends over backwards to make sure no one takes advantage of the linkshell and at the same time make sure everyone has that slight chance to get something they desire. This is why we have so many rules and he make sure no one breaks them. I know it would be easier for me to say "Oh just give Teo the next SM that drops" because I already have a piece. In fact I could push forward and agree with your opinion as well Halon, but at the same time that's really neglecting all our other members that try their very best in the linkshell by doing their part as well (Ie, Halon whenever you're around :p).

Now if ALL SM lotters were to pass SM for Teo, then be my guest, that's certainly a very nice thing to do :). But that is an entirely different issue and although some may agree to it at first; once you get situations where we wipe @1% to DL or get a bunch of no drop DLs, or get ring LOADS of times (yeah right), then people will no doubt have an issue.

(Just trying to cover ALL grounds here).


In any case I think this is a very nice gesture, but do you know what's even better? If every single member (old and new) put their 101% into the linkshell by
a) thoroughly read/understand the rules,
b) follow said rules,
c) stop AFKing mid run,
d) read what currency is owed and how much you're owed before the run you pick up currency,
e) if you are tired and feel you might fall asleep or somesuch... set auto-logout to 10 minutes,
f) pay attention to what we're doing,
g) I can go on and on about specific job duties (ie, rdm silencing slimes, blm and rdm together helping sleepga, bring them echo drops!!!, etcetc)..

In the past we've had people who thought they could skill up in dynamis, general half-assing, bitching that other people have gotten AF before they did because they deserved it, AFKing and not telling people, etcetc.. list goes on. I understand there are bits of frustration and patience involved when lotting/losing AF, but it seems like not many people would think "Oh, it's ok, at least I got a chance and perhaps the next XXX AF that drops will be mine :)". I mean we've had people with over 100 runs still completely clueless about certain parts of the rules. If we could ALL do our part for real, then it'll just help Teo out a lot more. If after the fact someone knows about teo's dedication to the linkshell and they still half-ass their effort, that would just be total disrespect not only to teo but to the whole linkshell as well.

By doing OUR part, it will not only help Teo a lot but wouldn't it be better to work as a team with ONE solid goal? I'm pretty sure if I saw all members of the linkshell literally bust their ass and give 101% I will definitely pride myself in being the best dynamis linkshell there is to exist (as if we're not already haha). By just doing something so simple that many people neglect, Teo will probably be less stressed and just the entire flow of 3-hour dynamises would be less irritating in less exciting runs (never ending windursts but oh crap that last death-house pull we did rocked!!).

That's my two-cent!

Halon50
03-03-2007, 07:26 PM
Hmm, this is nice and all, but the part about working half-ass, going AFK randomly, and bitching about AF still happens. Quite frankly, out of the list of 12 Mantle lotters, I only see 7 people who deserve lotting ability, and of those 7, Zymurgy Cyrus Halon and Krish would pass for Teorem. I can't speak for the others (Juma, Arcadina, Caclax), which is why I want to specifically hear from them on this issue.

Sorry to name names, but let's be honest: would you bitch about letting Teorem get the next Mantle?

Spunkymage
03-03-2007, 08:39 PM
Halon, I know you want it to be permanent. But please, accept the current proposal as-is. It's bad enough I blind-sided Teorem with this, but in doing so prior to making this known to the general membership... I spoke with him to make sure he was ok with this being granted priority period. I also wanted to make sure he would not reject it on one ground or another. For his compromise, I promised him it would be fair to the others and not set a bad precedent. This is a very unique situation because he is a ls leader. I've already hashed out the details. I ask, please do not over-complicate the matter.

Halon50
03-03-2007, 09:31 PM
It's not complicated, it's a Shadow Mantle. So how about we get some mantles to people who have PLD levelled and actually use PLD?

Leylana
03-03-2007, 09:40 PM
It's not complicated, it's a Shadow Mantle. So how about we get some mantles to people who have PLD levelled and actually use PLD?

I agree. It would benefit a pld who plays pld more than a mage or a dd that's gonna keep it as inventory -1 just for bragging rights. I gave up my rights to a shadow item because I'd rather let someone who needs/wants it and will use it to have it.

Cyrus
03-04-2007, 01:19 AM
The rules were set up the way they were so that everyone who contributed could have a shot at the ultimate prize given a large measure of dedication. We all understand your point Halon, but there's really no reason to further argue this. This is a poll that is set up for the linkshell to reward Teorem for all of his hard work. Let's please not derail it anymore.

KainHighwind
03-04-2007, 04:22 PM
The only way I could think of a reason people would dissagree would be that it hurts the other lotters. While Teo has gone above and beyond +1, there isn't necesarialy(my spelling sucks, I know) something the other mantle lotters have done wrong to not deserve it. We have rules set for it and they are able to lot. Having him always able to lot in his own special priority at least keeps it fair to the other lotters.

Sykes
03-04-2007, 06:02 PM
I nuked several of the posts in this thread. If you can't make a point without directly or indirectly attacking another person, please don't bother posting at all.

Halon50
03-05-2007, 01:23 AM
OK. I certainly didn't intend to spark some long debate on who deserves it or not, but rather wanted to hear from the other Mantle lotters whether they'd be willing to voluntarily pass the next Mantle for Teorem. Regardless, we'll all get Mantles soon, and it'll end up free lot by the end of the year, so let's just keep plugging away!

Leylana
03-05-2007, 10:25 AM
Yeah it's not like we don't go to Xarc every third run or anything >_>

Spunkymage
03-05-2007, 12:58 PM
I nuked several of the posts in this thread. If you can't make a point without directly or indirectly attacking another person, please don't bother posting at all.

Thank you Sykes.

Radav
03-06-2007, 12:05 PM
Hi everyone. I know I know... didn't you leave is what you're all thinking. Yes I did leave the game but I do still like to keep an eye on something I had a pretty significant hand in creating.

I was made aware by a member of the LS that this proposal would be made and I just wanted let my opinion of the situation be known. In the hopes that as a respected member of the community I used to be involved in maybe some people who have issue with something like this being done can better understand why it's being proposed in the first place.

Frankly, I can't see why the first Shadow Mantle that drops doesn't go directly to him no questions, arguments, whining, etc. etc. etc. No one should have a problem with this. You say oh well I understand how hard it is to LEAD a group like this. You probably think in the back of your head you do just as much as a leader by just showing up. Well I hate to say it but, YOU DON'T! The amount of time that goes into effectively trying to keep 70+ different personalities all in check, organize the runs, keep track of the gil going in and out, deal with all the currency, and then actually participate takes up so many hours I can't even believe I did it for so long or that it's possibly for anyone else to do so.

Yes there are people who help and they relieve some of that but ultimately as the leader you spend alot of time just doing random crappy tasks that need to get done. I know for a fact Teorem is doing the majority of what's needed. Really the fact he's leading now shouldn't factor into the equation.

To me this is a simple show of respect for someone who has done NOTHING but been the perfect LS member. Impeccable attendance, he's now leading the LS, he's ALWAYS been a major strength to the LS, and is a well respected member of the phoenix server community. How anyone could possibly begin to object to this is unfathomable. The fact it wasn't put into effect sooner is laughable and anyone who disagrees should be ashamed. It really shouldn't matter what job he plays. If he were bard only he would deserve it more then any PLD in the group hands down.

There are Japanese linkshells who give the FIRST drop like this to the leader of their group no matter what the job as a show of respect for all the hard work put into getting something like this done. I think they've definitely got the right idea.

I hope you are all doing well.

-Radav

Izzy
03-06-2007, 01:30 PM
There are Japanese linkshells who give the FIRST drop like this to the leader of their group no matter what the job as a show of respect for all the hard work put into getting something like this done. I think they've definitely got the right idea.

Didn't the guys that came up to you at work tell you this? Still remember that story by the way lol.

Radav
03-06-2007, 02:26 PM
Yes as a matter of fact it was them when we were swapping stories about stuff we had done in the game they mentioned that. I also remember hearing of japanese LSs on our own server doing things similar to this in HNM LSs.

Leylana
03-14-2007, 03:24 PM
While we're at it, Izzy has a lot of runs, almost -always- does alliances and other leader stuff, and has yet to get his ring, why not give him some kind of alternating priority on that as well :p