Hydra Haubert

[Neosutra]

First, this is NOT a bash Kain thread, i like kain, but last Dyanamis's Hydra drop caused a bit of drama. Typically I just laugh a bit and dont worry when items dont go to the best job, but for some reason this one has annoyed me for a bit.

Hydra Haubert is one of, if not the rarest armor in the game, and arguably the best for pld. It is equipable for pld,drk, and war. Of these three jobs, war gets -NO- use out of it since they already have huge emnity body peices. Drk could use it for TA hate i guess, but pld by far makes the most use of it. A war lotting this body peice does nothing for himself or the LS other then screw a pld out of the best armor out there and cause drama in the LS.

Now kain did nothing to break Dbums rules, and while i disagree with him lotting it, i hold no harsh feeling toward him. The only reason i am posting is to ask that the Hydra Haubert PLEASE be made pld only lot. I know Dbums doesnt do "job priority" on rare things like shadow mantle and such because we dont want attendance to go down, but i think there has to be a line somewhere and i do not beleive it is at all unfair to reward the plds in our LS with the best pld armor, rather then give another war a glorified epeen.

Congrats to kain, but can we please make this change?

[Teorem]

I'll discuss this with the leadership to weigh the pros and cons, but my initial inclination is "no." If such a condition is implemented on this Hydra piece, expect similar restrictions for other pieces to be devised as well.

I am already considering a limit on the number of Hydra pieces that can be received, similar to the way Shadow Items currently work, due to their rarity.

We actually do favor PLDs in the decision making for the Shadow Mantle, where there are two designated lotting slots for PLD mains only. The fact that there is not "job priority" has nothing to do at all with attendance, otherwise we would not raise the eligibility requirements for lotting.

(server seems to be choking when I try to edit)

Other members are welcome to voice their opinions on the matter here for consideration (regarding Hydra Haubert specifically or other Hydra pieces, NOT about its distribution last night).

[Neosutra]

I'll discuss this with the leadership to weigh the pros and cons, but my initial inclination is "no." If such a condition is implemented on this Hydra piece, expect similar restrictions for other pieces to be devised as well.

I am already considering a limit on the number of Hydra pieces that can be received, similar to the way Shadow Items currently work, due to their rarity.

We actually do favor PLDs in the decision making for the Shadow Mantle, where there are two designated lotting slots for PLD mains only.


Well.

The shadow mantle rule was a step in the right direction i beleive, but still gives room to the possibility that the plds in the LS never get the mantle if they suck at lotting lol. But that is another discussion.

My reason for posting was stating that the Haubert crosses the line of "job usefullness" to just plain silly for others to lot. Perhaps a LS vote. Perhaps leadership saying 'no', idc. But is there no line between sanity and total ambiguity?

I know Dbums rules work to encourage attendance, so items such as Shadow mantle and such can be lotted by even a taru summoner, but in the case of the Haubert, the war actually have a body peice that does THE EXACT same thing. Its not just "usefullness", its plain waste, it almost as if we had let it fall to no one at all. If summoners had a smn only back peice that occasionally annuled physical damage, would we still want them to lot over plds on shadow mantle? The answer is obviously no, but then why would we want wars to lot over plds on Hydra Haubert when they already have a huge emnity body peice?

[Carmisse]

I think as long as members are dedicated to the ls it doesn't matter what item they get as long as they can equip it. Sure they can be courteous but in the long run if I rather see items go to people that are dedicated and work hard for the ls rather than it go to someone who comes occasionally and couldn't give a rat's ass if we win the zone for people or w/e.

I rather people who love DB get cool stuff.

[Neosutra]

I think as long as members are dedicated to the ls it doesn't matter what item they get as long as they can equip it. Sure they can be courteous but in the long run if I rather see items go to people that are dedicated and work hard for the ls rather than it go to someone who comes occasionally and couldn't give a rat's ass if we win the zone for people or w/e.

I rather people who love DB get cool stuff.

Couldnt agree more carmisse. But cant you do both? Reward attendance/loyalty AND show a bit of discresion? Again, im not saying this as a broad sweeping statement to all items, just pointing out that the Haubert is special in the sense that war already has an emnity body and thus gets -no- use out of it.

[KainHighwind]

war gets -NO- use out of it since they already have huge emnity body peices.

You haven't tanked on war, have you? I'll assume not since you don't have 74+ war. Same with NIN tanking(depends on the situation, of course), keeping hate involves doing dmg. +8 enmity on AF body doosn't do much when it's only helping once every 30 seconds when provoke is up. Hydra Haubert has +9 enmity and (more importantly) 10 accuracy. Same 10 accuracy from hauberk. So if I'm tanking in Limbus, or like I did today with Genbu, I would meele in it all the time. Sacraficing 10 attack for 9 enmity is a no brainner if you are tanking. I've actually put it to some good use today. The last 30 minutes of a merit party today, our PLD had to go. So I had to solo tank. Yup, I wore Hydra Haubert. And about an hour ago I used it for tanking Genbu. So as much as you think it's best for PLD, you may be right. That doesn't, however, make it useless for a non--dd only war. I enjoy war tanking. I'm not in an HNM LS, so I don't fight really hard mobs where AF body would be better. So, I will be getting good use of this armor if you realize it or not.

If anything, I think getting the war legs -1 kinda caused problems. If I would have known I would be getting the hauby, I wouldn't have lotted. (or if I got the hydra hauby first). But unfortunately no one knew that was going to happen.

[Neosutra]

You haven't tanked on war, have you? I'll assume not since you don't have 74+ war. Same with NIN tanking(depends on the situation, of course), keeping hate involves doing dmg. +8 enmity on AF body doosn't do much when it's only helping once every 30 seconds when provoke is up. Hydra Haubert has +9 enmity and (more importantly) 10 accuracy. Same 10 accuracy from hauberk. So if I'm tanking in Limbus, or like I did today with Genbu, I would meele in it all the time. Sacraficing 10 attack for 9 enmity is a no brainner if you are tanking. I've actually put it to some good use today. The last 30 minutes of a merit party today, our PLD had to go. So I had to solo tank. Yup, I wore Hydra Haubert. And about an hour ago I used it for tanking Genbu. So as much as you think it's best for PLD, you may be right. That doesn't, however, make it useless for a non--dd only war. I enjoy war tanking. I'm not in an HNM LS, so I don't fight really hard mobs where AF body would be better. So, I will be getting good use of this armor if you realize it or not.

If anything, I think getting the war legs -1 kinda caused problems. If I would have known I would be getting the hauby, I wouldn't have lotted. (or if I got the hydra hauby first). But unfortunately no one knew that was going to happen.


Im not going to get in a debate of using it for war tank. If your on HNM, you wont be doing damage as war tank. If you are in meripo, you shouldnt have a problem keeping hate with rampage and voke.

Anyways, ive said my peice, grats again kain on your new fighters lorica +1.

[Cyrus]

There's really nothing good that can come of this kind of publicly calling out someone for lotting something. Next time it would be far better to address your concerns in a private message. Perhaps a forum section like our BC site has where members can bring up issues they feel need addressing with leadership in a forum site that only the member who posted and leadership can read is in order. On the subject of the haubert itself, I really don't see a reason why Kain shouldn't have been allowed to lot it if he reallistically planned to use it which he has.

[Neosutra]

There's really nothing good that can come of this kind of publicly calling out someone for lotting something. Next time it would be far better to address your concerns in a private message. Perhaps a forum section like our BC site has where members can bring up issues they feel need addressing with leadership in a forum site that only the member who posted and leadership can read is in order. On the subject of the haubert itself, I really don't see a reason why Kain shouldn't have been allowed to lot it if he reallistically planned to use it which he has.


As i said, this wasnt a bash kain post, i posted in the public forums to get people's opinions from the shell on a suggestion i had about one peice of equipment. If many people dont like it, then that is their own right, the open forum discussion was just addressing something that needed to be addressed. Im not a big fan of clandestine attacks on people, or just building up tensions, so debating things publically can cull some annoyances w/o hurting friendships.

[Penty]

Can we impose a limit on all item lotting for all races except Tarutaru? I want more stuff. :D

[Teorem]

As I said, the discussion here should only be regarding what people think about the restriction of Hydra armor to certain jobs.

I don't want to hear anymore about what people believe about Kainhighwind receiving it last night. We went in with certain rules in place and there should have been NO DRAMA whatsoever. If you disagree with the way it was distributed, that's fine. You are entitled to that opinion, but the only expression of opinion I am looking for here is in the first sentence above, and you can do so without making cheap shots at each other like rational adults. If you have something else to express, PM me regarding it.

Please do not make me start moderating posts. I have enough to do with Sephffg lurking around.

[Juma]

couldn't really care less. o_Ob


Honestly though, a piece like this would be nice to macro in or whatever for provoke (if you cared enough to do so, personally, I don't use windower macros so it would be impractical for me to have this, and I'd probably just pass on it if it dropped during a run I was in.), but pld isn't the only job that can get a good use out of it. WAR tank can be really good, and I have plans to eventually level WAR up for the sake of tanking. (Tanking is really all I like doing in this game Q_Q... and pulling in dynamis! Not pulling is boring!) I forgot where I was gunna go with this post so imma just stop here Q_Q.

[Neosutra]

Ya, Juma's post was really more of what i was looking for in responses:

Your opinion.


Reason, or other suggestion.

No drama please >.<.

[KainHighwind]

As I said, the discussion here should only be regarding what people think about the restriction of Hydra armor to certain jobs.

If you start restricting hydra gear based on jobs, then you'd have to restrict other gear. Like whm relic body to whm's who don't have a noble's tunic, or war hands to those without adaman mufflers. Or there's the hydra beret we got before. RDM tend to /heal less often than say a whm. So should a whm get priority on that? Or there's the levle 50 hydra gear that we got which was totally useless (+50 to NPC HP?) People play jobs for different purposes and styles. To say one job should get it over another would just cause more problems. You'd have to have someone that knows everything about every job decide that.

[Neosutra]

If you start restricting hydra gear based on jobs, then you'd have to restrict other gear. Like whm relic body to whm's who don't have a noble's tunic, or war hands to those without adaman mufflers. Or there's the hydra beret we got before. RDM tend to /heal less often than say a whm. So should a whm get priority on that? Or there's the levle 50 hydra gear that we got which was totally useless (+50 to NPC HP?) People play jobs for different purposes and styles. To say one job should get it over another would just cause more problems. You'd have to have someone that knows everything about every job decide that.


I dont think any of those examples focus on the one point i was trying to make, which was the SPECIFIC correlation between fighters lorica and hydra haubert that makes it significantly more usefull for pld. NOT a general sweeping emphasis on any number of items. If hydra beret had the exact same stats as rdm af1 hat, then your debate would hold some weight.

[Sephffg]

I have enough to do with Sephffg lurking around.

I know you love me. ^^b

[Carmisse]

I personally wouldn't restrict it to certain jobs. There already is job restriction to each piece and it seems to me those that can equip the piece can put it to good use (ie the beret for example)

[Neosutra]

I personally wouldn't restrict it to certain jobs. There already is job restriction to each piece and it seems to me those that can equip the piece can put it to good use (ie the beret for example)

What if the beret had the exact same stats as rdm af1 hat?

I know dbums has no line in the sand over such items, but this one in particular just seems a really take advantage of our rules.

[Carmisse]

What if the beret had the exact same stats as rdm af1 hat?



What? Neo, now you're just not making much sense ... lol Can't speculate what an item MIGHT have when no such thing even exists... so why debate it?

OMG WHAT IF RDM CAN HAVE CHAINSPELL AND MANAFONT OMFG /drool

yeah right ... lol

[Neosutra]

What? Neo, now you're just not making much sense ... lol Can't speculate what an item MIGHT have when no such thing even exists... so why debate it?

OMG WHAT IF RDM CAN HAVE CHAINSPELL AND MANAFONT OMFG /drool

yeah right ... lol


I was making an alliteration to the comparion not making since because neither whm or rdm have anything like it. If the beret had the same stats as the rdm af1 hat, then it would be a similar situation to haubert having same use for war as their af1 body.

I didnt think it was that vague an analogy O.o.

[Carmisse]

I had no idea what you were talking about because I didn't memorize the stats to pld af1 body Q_Q

[Neosutra]

I had no idea what you were talking about because I didn't memorize the stats to pld af1 body Q_Q


Warrior af1 body = 8 emnity, 5 vit, 20 hp.

Hence the comparison with hydra haubert and the request for plds to have priority over wars.

1 more emnity for a war.

5 more emnity for a pld.

Or should our wars start being our dynamis tanks?

[Izzy]

Can we impose a limit on all item lotting for all races except Tarutaru? I want more stuff. :D

/

[Zymurgy]

The reason that we haven't done anything specific with hydra pieces is because they are very rare drops, and most of them are utterly worthless.

I do not agree that action should be taken to limit specific items to specific classes. Shadow mantle is only an exception since it only drops off one guy, the fight isn't easy, and it requires a lot of people. Even in the case of shadow mantle, there are a lot of rules and restrictions for who can lot it. There is the PLD factor but there are still 5 other spots for people who might not even have PLD leveled up; it's based mostly on LS dedication.

The amount of time and effort required to go into setting up specific rules for specific armors that drop randomly as part of a set of 8 or 10 different pieces, plus the book keeping and preparation required to make sure that the correct person can lot the correct piece, should it drop, on a specific run...it's way too much of a hassle.

In the future there might be some rules regarding who can lot a hydra piece, but it would be something simple like you can only lot a hydra piece of armor if your upgrade job matches one of the jobs that can equip that piece, or something of that sort, but until that becomes some sort of issue that people have a problem with (there haven't really been any yet since, like I said before, 90% of the pieces have utterly worthless stats), I don't see any reason to limit who gets to lot.

[Neosutra]

The reason that we haven't done anything specific with hydra pieces is because they are very rare drops, and most of them are utterly worthless.

I do not agree that action should be taken to limit specific items to specific classes. Shadow mantle is only an exception since it only drops off one guy, the fight isn't easy, and it requires a lot of people. Even in the case of shadow mantle, there are a lot of rules and restrictions for who can lot it. There is the PLD factor but there are still 5 other spots for people who might not even have PLD leveled up; it's based mostly on LS dedication.

The amount of time and effort required to go into setting up specific rules for specific armors that drop randomly as part of a set of 8 or 10 different pieces, plus the book keeping and preparation required to make sure that the correct person can lot the correct piece, should it drop, on a specific run...it's way too much of a hassle.

In the future there might be some rules regarding who can lot a hydra piece, but it would be something simple like you can only lot a hydra piece of armor if your upgrade job matches one of the jobs that can equip that piece, or something of that sort, but until that becomes some sort of issue that people have a problem with (there haven't really been any yet since, like I said before, 90% of the pieces have utterly worthless stats), I don't see any reason to limit who gets to lot.


Again i say.

One rule.

For this one peice.

Because it is a highly unique situation due to similarity of it and war af1 that bumps it above just "usefullness" to plain silly.

I am making no reference to making rulesets for ANY other hydra peice or dynamis drop.

[Izzy]

Again i say.

One rule.

For this one peice.

Because it is a highly unique situation due to similarity of it and war af1 that bumps it above just "usefullness" to plain silly.

I am making no reference to making rulesets for ANY other hydra peice or dynamis drop.

the thing is neo, if we do this to this peice, we have to re-evaluate EVERY peice of hydra gear/shadow items that drop.

its just as easy to say, NIN gets priority on Shadow Ring now cause they only take magic damage if they're tanking right. But there's other uses for the ring, just like there's other uses for that hydra body peice.

We cant just reward people with certian jobs, some people play this game for other reasons. Some people play this game ONLY for dynamis, ie. radav/fatman, and denying those people the ability to lot on items that drop from the only thing they play this game for, is kinda wrong dont you think?

[Neosutra]

the thing is neo, if we do this to this peice, we have to re-evaluate EVERY peice of hydra gear/shadow items that drop.

its just as easy to say, NIN gets priority on Shadow Ring now cause they only take magic damage if they're tanking right. But there's other uses for the ring, just like there's other uses for that hydra body peice.

We cant just reward people with certian jobs, some people play this game for other reasons. Some people play this game ONLY for dynamis, ie. radav/fatman, and denying those people the ability to lot on items that drop from the only thing they play this game for, is kinda wrong dont you think?


Ya, i agree izzy, and you make a good point. Hence why i would never complain over shadow mantle or ring. And i guess all im really trying to say here is i beleive that there is some line between rewarding our good members, and making the most effecient use of some items. I dont think a re-evlauation of all hydra gear is in order. I think that is just an excuse to not focus on a specific peice.

Im not shunning our rules, our any members, i love Dbums, and i like kain. I just think there is room for improvement. There has got to be a way to keep all our our dedicated members happy and still allow some discresion, if only for this one item.

[Izzy]

Ya, i agree izzy, and you make a good point. Hence why i would never complain over shadow mantle or ring. And i guess all im really trying to say here is i beleive that there is some line between rewarding our good members, and making the most effecient use of some items. I dont think a re-evlauation of all hydra gear is in order. I think that is just an excuse to not focus on a specific peice.

Im not shunning our rules, our any members, i love Dbums, and i like kain. I just think there is room for improvement. There has got to be a way to keep all our our dedicated members happy and still allow some discresion, if only for this one item.

if a dedicated member is getting pissed over something such as losing a lot, then they probley shouldnt be here Q_Q. We've all lost lots and won lots we probley shouldnt have

i beat resetti on my 4th run for SMN body

lau beat me on his 4th run and my 86th run for SMN horn

so is the nature of dynamis lol

[Carmisse]

I dont think a re-evlauation of all hydra gear is in order. I think that is just an excuse to not focus on a specific peice.



... because if leaders only do it for THAT piece, people who want the other pieces are going to want special treatment as well. It isn't an excuse to not focus on one piece because if you're going to do it for one, you need to do it for all.

[Penty]

Raven Beret - -8 enmity. All mage jobs except BLM.
Yigit Turban - +1 hMP

Hydra Beret - -8 enmity, +2 hMP all mage jobs.

BLM A: HAY GUYZ I NEEDZ MORE -ENMITY
WHM A: fu I need more hMPz for max healing awesomeness!
RDM, SMN, and BRD: FU WHMZ AND BLMZ WE ALL NEEDZ TEH MORE hMPZ LOLHAT

Now do this with /every single peice/ of any decent hydra gear.

Not worth the trouble and in-fighting that would occur. At all.

[Neosutra]

... because if leaders only do it for THAT piece, people who want the other pieces are going to want special treatment as well. It isn't an excuse to not focus on one piece because if you're going to do it for one, you need to do it for all.



Has any members come foward asking for job priority on any hydra peice other then this one?

Could we just evaluate that 1... maybe 2 peices that might need it due to member request?

Is the effort it takes just WAY TOO much if it means ensuring a drama free system?

[Teorem]

"I will not restrict jobs on this piece because then I will have to examine the other Hydra pieces" is not an excuse being made. The fact that it would be more work is not an issue to me.

I am, quite plainly, telling you that if utility of the Hydra Haubert is examined and a rule proposed that prioritizes its distribution over the jobs that are able to equip it, I will take the time to go over every single Hydra piece in a similar fashion. Whether the other leaders like it or not.

In the claim you are making, the Hydra Haubert deserves examination because:

1) it is more enmity in one piece than any other piece a PLD can use in that slot, and
2) one of the jobs that can equip the piece has a similar equipment option usable in that slot.

The Haubert, in this instance, is not unique in the fact that it has a high Enmity+ attribute. In fact, all of the pieces of that particular set (Salade, Haubert, Moufles, Brayettes, Sollerets) have a Enmity+ that is higher on just about any piece a person can get for their respective slots.

Going back to Kainhighwind's comment:


If you start restricting hydra gear based on jobs, then you'd have to restrict other gear. Like whm relic body to whm's who don't have a noble's tunic, or war hands to those without adaman mufflers.

Priorities that would be placed on gear would not at all depend on what a member has or has not received outside of Dynamis. Your efforts and rewards outside of the linkshell are irrelevant when it comes to who "deserves" pieces that drop within a Dynamis zone.

The comparisons I would make in evaluation would be similar to Penty's last post, comparing the Hydra items to items that are realistically obtained by any other member through the AH or a simple quest (such as regular AF pieces).

[Krish]

Yup, I wore Hydra Haubert. And about an hour ago I used it for tanking Genbu... I enjoy war tanking... So, I will be getting good use of this armor...

That comment pretty much ended this discussion for me.

-krish

[Neosutra]

My thoughts have been expressed, the leadership has heard different perspectives, thats all i wanted. Thankyou for the input everyone.

[Izzy]

hey, at least noone quit over this discussion hahahahahahahaha

[Neosutra]

hey, at least noone quit over this discussion hahahahahahahaha


lol >.<.

I think we should be able to have discussions like this w/o drama, we are all adults. If a member has a concern or suggestion about a rule or item, they shouldnt feel like they will get in trouble for posting about it and asking for input.

[Penty]

On a slightly related note: posting your argument on BG was really, really lame, and served to do nothing but make people think bad of both our LS and Kain.

[Neosutra]

On a slightly related note: posting your argument on BG was really, really lame, and served to do nothing but make people think bad of both our LS and Kain.


It was completely ananomous, with no name on anyone. Kains pic on KI was the only reason anyone noticed. But thanx for bringing it up, and stirring up what was almost a dead horse.

[Penty]

It's so TOTALLY Kain's fault that you would bring an LS matter to BG that would lead to his being insulted because he posted a picture, I know!

[Neosutra]

It's so TOTALLY Kain's fault that you would bring an LS matter to BG that would lead to his being insulted because he posted a picture, I know!


Did i insult kain or the LS once?

Did i ever post any names?

Did i do anything but ask what others thought about a rule?

Does your continuing to pour gasoline on the fire do anything but ensure more drama will occur?

Is it NOT possible to have a conversation about a rule w/o it turning ugly?

[Penty]

I'm sorry, but there is absolutely NO WAY I believe you didn't know that Kain won it would get out.

Even searching something as simple as "Neosutra Dynamis" brings up DOZENS of links to our website, and EASY access to our run/drop results. That takes maybe five minutes, tops.

You /knew/ this would get out about Kain, and you /knew/ it'd make him look bad. Passive-aggressive ftw.

[Izzy]

Did i insult kain or the LS once?

Did i ever post any names?

Did i do anything but ask what others thought about a rule?

Does your continuing to pour gasoline on the fire do anything but ensure more drama will occur?

Is it NOT possible to have a conversation about a rule w/o it turning ugly?

sugguest we close this thread and take this to pm's quite possibly?

[Neosutra]

I'm sorry, but there is absolutely NO WAY I believe you didn't know that Kain won it would get out.

Even searching something as simple as "Neosutra Dynamis" brings up DOZENS of links to our website, and EASY access to our run/drop results. That takes maybe five minutes, tops.

You /knew/ this would get out about Kain, and you /knew/ it'd make him look bad. Passive-aggressive ftw.


I think your mistaking your passive aggressiveness for mine. Beleive what you want, keep stirring up drama.

The suggestion for item rule change was posted.

Comments were made.

Get over it, grow up, get some thick skin, and if you think that low of me then im sorry you dont know me that well =/

If you read ANY of the posts on BG, i did NOTHING but defend kain the entire time. Or did you miss that part in your search for my evil plans?

And yes, lock please Q.Q

[Penty]

Saying "Oh, but hey, Kain's a real stand up guy." between all your subtle insults and mocking is really defending.

[Izzy]

holy shit angry penty is hot

touch me where it's more sensitive please Q_Q

[Neosutra]

Saying "Oh, but hey, Kain's a real stand up guy." between all your subtle insults and mocking is really defending.


Ok penty. Ty.

[Teorem]

Regarding the post on Blue Gartr's website:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think I said this before even in this thread.

I have seen the poll you posted. At no point have I, or will I ever, maintain that a PLD will not get the most out of this piece. I also have PLD leveled, and can see a more-than-decent tanking piece when one falls into the Treasure Pool.

However, Blue Gartr does not run this linkshell, nor do they make our rules. I will take the poll on their forums with as much weight as I would any other opinion.

As a personal opinion, I believe that in making that post there, you vastly underestimated the investigative ability of the FFXI HNMLS community when it comes to finding "good drama." To say that you honestly believed that no one would ever be brought into it, regardless of Kainhighwind's posts on other forums...I cannot say I believe that.

I will evaluate the possibility of making job priorities on the Hydra armor that drops in Dynamis-Tavnazia with the leadership.

This matter is closed.